Mastering the Pay Conversation

Mastering the art of salary negotiation requires more than just knowing your market value; it demands confronting deep-seated fears and limiting beliefs that keep us from advocating for our worth. In this illuminating conversation, compensation expert Souhila Keffi draws back the curtain on what really happens behind closed doors when pay decisions are made.

The statistics are striking: while 57% of men negotiate their starting salaries, only 7% of women do the same. This disparity creates a compounding effect throughout careers, affecting not just immediate earnings but long-term financial security. "If you fail to negotiate your starting salary," Souhila warns, "it will affect your bonus, retirement savings - the impact is massive." But the solution isn't simply telling people to negotiate harder; it requires addressing the psychological barriers that prevent us from speaking up.

Drawing from nearly two decades of experience working with major corporations across Europe and Asia, Souhila introduces frameworks that transform intimidating pay conversations into manageable processes. Her EDGE framework (Evaluate, Design, Ground, Elevate) provides a roadmap for employees, while the 3M approach (Mindset, Model, Message) helps founders price their services effectively. At the core of both is a crucial mindset shift: "Your worth is not your salary."

For professionals returning to work after career breaks, particularly women, Souhila offers pointed advice against accepting lower salaries just to "get a foot in the door." Instead, she encourages returners to own their story and recognise the valuable, transferable skills they've developed during their time away. This perspective shift turns a perceived liability into a unique strength.

Whether you're preparing for your next promotion conversation, wondering if you're being fairly compensated, or setting rates as a business owner, this episode provides practical strategies to approach pay discussions with confidence, clarity, and courage. Remember, as Souhila powerfully states, "There's no courage without fear"; you'll never feel completely ready for these conversations, but taking that first step builds the negotiation muscle that will serve you throughout your entire career.

Tune in for an inspiring conversation that will leave you equipped with the tools to lead with confidence, overcome obstacles and unlock The Power Within

email us at: info@motivuscoaching.com

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Transcript

Introduction to Souhila Keffi

Keith 0:00

Welcome to the Power Within, the podcast where we explore leadership, personal growth and the dynamics that shape success. I'm Keith Power, and each week, I sit down with inspiring individuals who share insights on leading with impact, building resilience and unlocking potential. On leading with impact, building resilience and unlocking potential. Through their experiences, we'll uncover the mindset and strategies that drive meaningful growth. Whether you're looking to evolve as a leader or gain new perspectives, this podcast is here to guide you. Today, on the Powered In, I'm joined by Sohila Kefi, a compensation advisor, coach and founder of the Pay Edge, as we explore more stories of resilience, growth and the power of determination.

Keith 0:59

Souhila has spent nearly 20 years working across Europe and Asia, helping respected brands, including AWS, build fair and competitive pay practices. She knows the system inside out and she's seen time and again how talented people hold themselves back when it comes to asking for what they're worth. That's why she created the PayEdge to help professionals and founders understand their true value, speak up with confidence and negotiate fair pay. Drawing on her experience in compensation strategy and HR, she now supports clients to rewrite the money conversation from corporate roles to business owners setting their rates. In today's episode, we'll explore what really shapes who gets heard and who gets rewarded, and how we can all step forward with more clarity, courage and fairness. Okay, Souhila.

Souhila 2:07

Hello.

Keith 2:08

Welcome to the Power Within.

Souhila 2:10

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Keith 2:12

And I know you're heading off on a longish holiday tomorrow, so thank you for making the time during your final 24 hours. You're packed, I presume.

Souhila 2:21

No, I'm not, but it's fine. It doesn't need to be something I do well ahead of time. I like adrenaline.

Keith 2:29

Oh, there we go. We'll bring out some adrenaline now, so let's dive straight in, shall we? Your career spans consulting, finance, tech, and now leadership, coaching and pay equity, which I think is what our listeners and viewers will be most interested in. What was the moment that sparked this unique pivot?

Souhila 2:54

I think, yes, you can say it's a quite unique pivot, because I think I am maybe the only compensation expert who works in the space of salary negotiation coaching. My story is essentially that I started my career in consulting, where I got exposed to a lot of you know strategies for companies to retain talent, how to drive performance, how to encourage the right behaviors, and that was all very, very exciting.

Keith 3:23

But that's the other side of the fence. You've jumped over now, right?

Souhila 3:26

Exactly, but I'll tell you why and how this happened. I loved corporate and I never planned to leave corporate, but what I have noticed in working in compensation is that while companies have made a lot of progress on pay equity and putting in place sophisticated system, there is a gap in how people show up at the negotiation table, Meaning that a lot of people are afraid to negotiate because they don't have the knowledge, because they are afraid. You know. They have a fear of not being perceived well, a fear of damaging their and perhaps losing the opportunity.

Souhila 4:11

Absolutely Losing the opportunity is one or, you know, appearing as ungrateful. The company took care of me. It's inappropriate to ask for a raise, and there are also other people who are very confident, but they can damage their positioning from not asking in the right way. There is a very big gap between the intention from corporates to reduce pay gap and the level of proficiency in negotiation, which I think is really what I'm trying to address with the pay edge. It's how to help people to master that part, because, at the end of the day, negotiation is still going to be there.

Souhila 4:58

Companies have to negotiate because they compete for talent and they have no choice, right? You can't just say this is the number and this is how much I'm going to pay you and we are putting aside all your past experiences or your uniqueness because our salary structure says this is the number. No, there's always margin for negotiation To address that. I think there is some work to be done around supporting people in removing the fear, in understanding compensation better, in understanding how to ask, how to frame your request in a way that's going to be, you know, well received and that's not going to position you as ungrateful or greedy, but you said, companies have that space for negotiation and don't just put a number out there.

Breaking the Fear of Salary Negotiation

Keith 5:49

However, two times in my career I've been in just such a position, and that's not to do with the company or the human resources, but more to do with the ego of the hiring manager. So one of them was an internal promotion and I was basically told that's it, there's no negotiation, and I stupidly accepted it and had to go back to negotiating two years one and a half years later, where I was successful in getting a 25% raise, which means I left it on the table in the first place. And the second one was when I took a role where it was an external company and they just said that's it and I accepted it again. And I'm not a shrinking violet and I'm not a fearful person, but I did take that as being that's it. How would you suggest someone deals with just the? There's the offer and that's it.

Souhila 6:46

Okay, so before I respond to that, I want to ask you what was behind the that's it. Did you get any you know, clarity on where they were coming from? Because there might be a rationale. There may be, there may not be. It really depends on.

Keith 7:02

There were two different scenarios, and the first one my, their manager's ego, no question in my mind. I know now because I accelerated past him in the promotion stakes and he's just a blunt guy and that's it, so it's a personality thing. The second one perhaps was much more to do with the fact that I probably stretched their budget already with my request early on.

Souhila 7:31

Okay, which means you negotiated in a certain way.

Keith 7:34

Prior negotiation, but when it came to it, that's it basically.

Souhila 7:38

And that's okay. You know, I think at the end of the day, what matters the most is to understand, is to ask questions, is to uncover the reasons why they are not able to offer you more. And you know there are ways to ask and to really find out whether you are actually leaving money on the table or if this is really what it is. You know, and it is important for an employee to know that, especially when they are starting a new job, you want to start on the right foot right. You want to make sure that you get that understanding. At the end of the day, it's all about transparency. I believe that pay transparency is a big game changer in the corporate world in the sense that it reduces the frustration On both sides, on both sides.

Souhila 8:26

On both sides. If you are ready to have that open conversation, whether you are a manager or an employee, and put everything on the table and explain how compensation works in that particular company, what is doable, what is not doable, why, what is the rationale behind it, then everyone is happier. You know, because if you don't understand compensation, you start assuming yes, yes and you make up stories, you start to question your worth because obviously money is a very personal topic.

Souhila 9:00

Yeah, you and emotional very, very emotional, and so you start to question. You know, why are they potentially paying this person more? Because they think this person deserves more. So you make it about your personal value, and that's a dangerous path, right?

Keith 9:18

Okay.

Souhila 9:19

Because it eventually affects your engagements. It affects how you show up at work. It's potentially something that can hold your performance back as well, when, in the first place, compensation is meant to drive the right behaviors that drive performance that you know deliver the company strategy there's a lot to unpackage there yes, and before and before you ask your next question, I just want to go back to that manager with a strong ego.

Keith 9:49

Yeah.

Souhila 9:50

Unfortunately this is quite a common situation which I was when I was on the corporate side. We worked on that to try and address how managers behave in salary conversation.

Keith 10:04

They're maverick sometimes.

Souhila 10:05

We cannot control a person's personality.

Keith 10:08

Yes, yes Right.

Souhila 10:10

I think companies are doing a good job and can still do some work around equipping the managers with the right tools, with the right information and the right mindset to approach salary conversations. It's not just about how the employee shows up, it's also about the managers how do they convey the messages? Do they understand the company compensation philosophy in the first place? You know, and are they the right ambassadors?

Keith 10:40

You know, I appreciate that managers are not compensation experts and hence they need to be trained the same way they are trained on other topics, you know. Or step back and let professionals manage that aspect of the process, perhaps.

Souhila 10:57

Yes, I know there are pros and cons, but if you want to create a culture of transparency, it's very important that anyone is able to discuss it in an open manner and hence, having the managers trained is probably the best way to do that, and I hope to goodness that my old manager doesn't recognize himself here.

Keith 11:22

Let's move on. You've lived and worked across Europe and Asia. How has that global lens shaped your views on leadership, power and human potential?

Souhila 11:36

My career is very interesting in the sense that I started as a consultant in a major HR consultancy in Paris in a major HR consultancy in Paris. I worked there for five years. I thought I was the queen of the world. I was managing big international projects, international coordination, 15 countries, like I'm thinking about a project for a massive German pharmaceutical company where I had to reach out to consultants, our internal consultants, in 50 countries and have them, you know, deliver some high level benchmarks for strategic, you know talents in that company. And I thought, because I was having those regular interactions with the international community, I understood culture. I had a German client. I had to adapt to their needs and, you know, to being, you know, very data oriented. And then I moved to Hong Kong.

Keith 12:30

And it all changed.

Souhila 12:31

It was a big slap in my face.

Souhila 12:34

It took me a while to realize that I brought my French slash assertive cultural background at work and it didn't always land very well. It took me quite some time to build that awareness and to realize that there's a lot that I need to unlearn. So the first realization was wow, this is not working. Before I come in and give my technical advice, I need to build trust, I need to build relationships, I need to take it slowly, basically, and not be that loud, because loud is not necessarily valued.

Keith 13:13

Yeah, not in Asia. It sounds like it resonates for you. Parts of Asia oh, it resonates Absolutely. This period of adjustment for you was that weeks, months, years in understanding.

Souhila 13:28

It's still a work in progress.

Keith 13:29

Oh, that's a good answer.

Cultural Differences in Pay Conversations

Keith 13:31

That's an honest answer, right, simple things cultural differences. In Singapore, where we are now, there's an expectation when you go for a job to share proof of your last drawn salary. In some countries that would be anathema, just absolutely not a question they ask. I've been on both sides as well, like you, and on the one side. If you're on the employer side, the only reason you want to know that is A, can you afford this candidate? And then B, if you can, can I pay less than I plan to? Basically right. So transparency you talk about can be good, but if it's one way, it's not so good.

Souhila 14:18

It's not so good and it's unfair.

Keith 14:20

Right, absolutely.

Souhila 14:22

Because it puts you in a weak position. Unfair Right? Absolutely Because it puts you in a weak position. When I came to Asia and when I asked to share my last run salary, I just tried to blend in and follow what was asked from me. I now think that it's something that we should absolutely not do and this is what I advise my clients. Actually, they are very respectful ways of pushing back on this request, because I think it sets you up for failure so everyone from asia listening to this now wants to.

Keith 14:58

They're hanging on your next words. How do you push back in such a scenario where, culturally, there's an expectation of you sharing that? How do you push back in such a scenario where, culturally, there's an expectation of you sharing that? How do you push back?

Souhila 15:09

I think it's important to understand why your past salary shouldn't define your future salary. Okay, if you are switching jobs, very likely you're gonna work for a different company, with a different context, in a different role, maybe a different scope and a different culture, a different compensation philosophy, a different you know way to benchmark salaries and, as such, I think it's absolutely irrelevant to refer to your past salary. The reason why you are switching jobs in the first place or maybe not in the first place, but one of the reasons why is to bump your salary up.

Keith 15:52

For sure you don't generally move to take your salary down right Generally.

Souhila 15:57

And you're taking a risk somehow and you want that risk to be compensated. Now, I'm not saying that every job move should be compensated higher, but I think this is part of everyone's career strategy. It's fair to say that you should expect a bump in your pay If the company is looking at your past salary as the reference it anchors the negotiation to the wrong level, based on the wrong role, wrong company, wrong compensation structure.

Keith 16:28

So how would you push back politely?

Souhila 16:31

There are many different ways of doing this and of course you have to adapt it to the context. But one way to do that in a very polite manner would be, if asked early in the compensation in the interview process is to say listen, this is too early for me. I prefer to not share my past salary but focus on the role that I am interviewing for, because it's quite different. And once I get clarity on the roles, the role, the responsibilities, the scope then I'll be happy, you know, to discuss the salary.

Keith 17:05

The salary, not necessarily my salary. The salary the salary that's the key. So a little bit of a swerve, but also you're setting the expectation for the future negotiation anyway. Okay, subtle sounds very psychological, but very logical it's all about psychology every absolutely.

The 3M and EDGE Frameworks

Keith 17:28

The sooner you wake up to that, the easier life is. I just took many years to realize that. All the time back to you personally and what you've developed. You've developed frameworks, the 3m for founders message and the edge for corporate employees. What led you to create these and why does it deliver such powerful results?

Souhila 17:56

Salary conversations or pricing strategy for founders is always very emotional and people tend to tie you know their identity to their salary or their ego again again and psychology, and I built a framework for founders which is mindsets. So you said, you work on your mindset first, then you model your pricing based on what you offer to your clients and what you deliver and, lastly, you work on how to frame your message. The reason why I did this is because I noticed that mindset is the biggest hurdle for founders, but they don't necessarily realize it.

Keith 18:38

Okay.

Souhila 18:39

And I like to use the metaphor of a house where the mindset is your foundation, your model, your pricing model is the structure of the house and the message is basically the interior design, and many really focus on the structure and the design when the foundation is not.

Keith 18:58

They don't get the foundation right and it cannot work.

Souhila 19:01

A lot of founders feel resentful, frustrated, underpaid because they over deliver, because they have this mindset that a client is a client.

Keith 19:15

Right.

Souhila 19:15

Or the mindset that if I charge too much then I might lose that client. But you know there needs to be alignment between what you deliver and you know how much you charge, how much you price. Of course, I see so many founders that have the best business strategy. You know they work very hard on marketing and branding and you know their programs, their products. But when it comes to pricing they have a weakness and my job is to really help them uncover what's holding them back and help them, you know, give themselves permission to charge more if this is aligned with you know what they are offering their clients. So that's on the founder side. I think what's really essential here is again the psychological side of pricing and detaching your identity from what you offer. It's really about reframing the fact that it's a commercial transaction. It's not about you. You are not your pricing.

Keith 20:21

A client says no. Stepping back from the emotion and making it more of an objective process, then right.

Souhila 20:28

Yes, and that requires some reflection, that requires some reframing and sometimes it takes time because the reasons that are holding people back on the topic of money can be multiple. Some are deeply ingrained in their childhood. Salary conversations for corporate employees are pretty much the same. Your worth is attached to how much you get paid and you can have a lot of limiting beliefs around pay, right. So it's a process that's intimidating, that's emotional and hence I created this framework, edge, which stands for you know, evaluate, really understand the situation, the context, the markets, then design.

Souhila 21:17

How do you tell your story, how do you show your impact, etc. Ground for G, how do you ground yourself, how do you not get emotional in the conversation really, and how do you convey your message and finally elevate? How do you elevate that conversation, how do you learn from it and how do you build the negotiation muscle that's going to serve you throughout your career? So the idea with creating those frameworks is really to create a step-by-step roadmap to something that can feel very fuzzy, very intimidating, and to remove the fear from it. Is the emotional, the personal.

Keith 21:56

The rest you can accept are a process, but getting someone to convince themselves they need to adjust their emotional state to an objective state, probably the area that they need to spend the most time on, and you probably end up spending the most time on, I'm presuming right yes, because the the minute you unlock, that everything, oh everything falls it's a bit like if you get the foundations right on a home. The rest is relatively easy. You follow the plan.

Souhila 22:43

The hardest bit is digging and setting the foundations that's the reason why I studied coaching, basically when I because I could have started the pay edge with the intention to help my clients understand their market value right build a negotiation strategy, but that's insufficient in my view. The full package is you know, evaluate your market, understand what you're worth, but also reflect and practice and learn.

Closing the Gender Pay Gap

Keith 23:15

As humans, our most difficult aspect is reflecting, which we both, as coaches, know. That's our job to help people to reflect, to help people to reflect. As soon as they take the time to reflect, to stop, to look in the mirror, to really assess, then it unlocks so much. Yeah, tatler Asia, you highlighted a striking statistic 57% of men negotiate their starting salary, versus just 7% of women. How do you help women rewrite their story?

Souhila 23:54

This is a shocking statistics, but sadly, very shocking. It's the reality. It's research that has been done by a very serious university in the US. I'm not sure it reflects you know the word worldly trend, but I think it's striking enough to make us realize that there is a disconnect, there is a gap in the way women advocate for themselves versus men. Women have been socially conditioned to be agreeable, historically, you know, we all know that.

Keith 24:26

No one told my wife that, oh, I'm dead. Well, you're lucky then.

Souhila 24:33

One thing that they don't necessarily realize, but also because they are not taught how to, is that this gap compounds over. You know their career. So if you fail to negotiate your starting salary, it will affect your bonus, because many times the bonus is calculated as a percentage of base pay. It will affect your retirement. You know savings. If you think about it's, the impact that this small negotiation or conversation at the beginning of your career can have is massive. And it's not just the financial impact. It's also the fact that the earlier you start negotiating, the better you get at it.

Souhila 25:16

And so if you build that habit early in your career, then it becomes easier and easier.

Keith 25:22

You own the skill.

Souhila 25:23

You own the skill. If you don't negotiate, what might happen in your next conversation around salary maybe five years later is you know again, you might fail to negotiate. You know it's never too late to learn and I always say that negotiation is a skill, it's not a personality trait, and that's the reason why I do what I do. Really, I want people to realize that it's within their reach.

Keith 25:49

You need to help them to reset their thinking towards this, basically right Away from the conditioned way that they've approached things previously. That is still hard because it is so hardwired in us how we are.

Keith 26:07

But I was still shocked by the statistics. Really, I knew there'd be a gap and that is a terrible mission for a man to make right, but it's so huge and we can talk all day about the gender gap, the gender gap. But this indicates that women are partially responsible themselves, personally, for that gap, for not stepping up, not advocating for themselves and not negotiating right.

Souhila 26:49

So I'll rephrase a little bit what she just said I think that the gender pay gap is mostly a systematic issue and a cultural issue. That's gonna take time to go away, but hopefully you know things are going that part we're agreed on, okay, but this part is new to me so what I think is that women have a lever to influence their compensation, and that is salary conversations.

Souhila 27:13

You know, I'm not saying they're going to close the pay gap by, you know, showing up advocating for themselves, owning their value and knowing what their market value is, but it's going to help For sure.

Souhila 27:26

It's definitely going to help because when you have the courage to work on your limiting beliefs and get prepared and strategize around a salary conversation because you understand how this is affecting your financial security, you are also paving the way for other women. You are normalizing those conversations and it's really starting to close the gender pay gap, one conversation at a time.

Keith 27:57

Okay, your platform, the Pay Edge, tackles compensation, clarity and we've come from transparency. What inspired it and how is it changing the way people think about pay?

Souhila 28:11

So what inspired it is really that disconnect between you know what companies are trying to achieve with their compensation systems versus how people show up in the conversations, and the importance also to acknowledge that compensation is a high factor of dissatisfaction at work, meaning that if you're not happy in your job, whether it's because of your relationship with your manager, because of your responsibilities, the content of the job, etc. Those frustrations might crystallize around compensation.

Keith 28:54

Okay.

Souhila 28:54

If you are able to increase your compensation, your dissatisfaction reduces, but your satisfaction doesn't necessarily go up.

Keith 29:04

You still have to address the other issues.

Souhila 29:06

Absolutely. Before addressing those other issues, I feel that it's very important that people feel aligned with their comp and, you know, we see a lot of people going through burnout. We see a lot of people we hear a lot about quiet quitting, you know, and these phenomenons can be addressed with this clarity around compensation. It's a win-win for employers and for employees. If you have employees who are ready to have that pay conversation with clarity, courage, then it really creates a safe environment, it creates trust, it creates engagement, it reduces the frustration and I think both employers and employees benefit from that. And that's why I think it's very important to make those conversations normal, to equip employees to have those conversations and feel better. And sometimes, you know, what I observed with some of my clients is that maybe the company is not the right fit.

Keith 30:09

I'm a firm advocate on doing something. If you recognize something's wrong, whether it's your pay, the job, your colleagues, your boss, do something about it, whatever move it on. But so we often see people who are successful from the outside, but they are still undervalued and or underpaid. Where should they start to reclaim their power?

Souhila 30:36

People that feel undervalued. Unfortunately, it's something that's quite common, you know, and it's very sad and it's something that I mean. If some of our listeners feel undervalued, I want them to know that they're not alone.

Keith 30:52

Okay.

Souhila 30:53

And that it's a pretty common thing and, like you said, if you have that feeling, the starting point from my perspective is really to try and understand where is this coming from? Is this truly my comp?

Keith 31:06

Yeah, yeah.

Mindset Shifts Around Value and Worth

Souhila 31:07

Is this something else? Is this a lack of recognition altogether? Is this that I'm not in the right job or the right company? Maybe a cultural mismatch? So there could be so many reasons why employees are feeling undervalued. Aspect comes in. So the starting point is my salary, but when you dig further you might come to the conclusion that it's something completely different.

Keith 31:39

The difference between being satisfied and being dissatisfied. If pay is not right, it's a dissatisfier. But if the other aspects are wrong and then you put the pay right, it doesn't mean you're satisfied. You stop this one dissatisfaction right.

Souhila 31:57

Absolutely.

Keith 31:58

You've also said that pricing is a proxy for power. This is the power within, by the way. What mindset shifts. Do you see leaders and founders struggle with most around their self-worth and value?

Souhila 32:13

So, first of all, the reason why I say pricing is a proxy for power is really because, from a founder's standpoint, I think it truly signals your worth to your clients. If you charge too low for what you deliver, it sends the wrong message.

Keith 32:28

Yes.

Souhila 32:29

And it attracts the wrong clients right, sends the wrong message and it attracts the wrong clients right. The biggest mindset trap that I see for founders again is this personal rejection thing, attaching their identity to their pricing. Like a client pushes back or a client tries tries to negotiate a fee means that I am not worth that amount of money, and that's that can be very.

Keith 32:52

But that's just a feeling, right, it may be real, it may not be.

Souhila 32:56

At the end of the day it's you know clients would try to negotiate. They're not questioning your worth, they're just trying to get the most out of a transaction which is fair in, you know, a commercial relationship.

Keith 33:09

So, again, separate yourself from the emotional part. Yeah, Again, again. It keeps coming back to this. Oh, my goodness.

Souhila 33:17

Yes, and for corporate employees, it's the same really is. You know, this company has taken care of me. They're offering me a promotion. How can I ask for a salary? How is this going to affect the relationship with my manager salary? How is this going to affect the relationship with my manager? So, for the other thing that I see a lot is, if I work hard, then the rewards will come.

Keith 33:39

That's just dreaming. Let's be honest about that, right.

Souhila 33:41

Yes, I mean it may come, but it may not come and you may have to take action, and it's basically putting yourself back in the driver's seat. You are in the driver's seat of your own career. You cannot delegate that power to someone else, whether it's your manager, your HR or anyone else.

Keith 34:06

Let's switch back to companies again, because we've focused a lot on individuals, which I'm sure everyone watching this will be that focused on. But when you work with companies on pay strategy, how do you then balance fairness, competitiveness and inclusion, especially for returners, people who've left and are coming back?

Souhila 34:29

I think the first part is really having a clear compensation philosophy, which means, as a company and based on the strategy that you're trying to deliver and the culture that you're trying to have, then what do you want to encourage with your compensation? And, and you know, your compensation systems can have different objectives. So, for example, I worked with when I was in consulting I worked on a massive regional revamp of a bonus plan for a luxury company. So the compensation philosophy of that company obviously is not going to be the same as the compensation philosophy of a fast-paced retail company for sure right so you want to encourage quality client service you know,

Souhila 35:19

and and this has to be reflected in your philosophy, you know do we encourage short-term versus long-term incentive? You know, there's a lot of things that are the continuation, basically, of your philosophy. It really sets the baseline of how pay decisions should be made in your company. That's the first, very important requirement. Then, you know, assessing markets is also, you know, very important because it will define your competitiveness. So, ensuring that you use the right benchmarks, that you contextualize market data, that you adapt it to your context, to your company context, when you create the salary ranges, I don't want to go too technical, but essentially then comes the fairness part. How do we ensure fairness when, like I said earlier, different individuals come with different levels?

Keith 36:13

of fairness doesn't necessarily equate to equality, and that's often mixed up. I I got a 10 year old and seven year old daughters and I treat them differently. I don't treat them the same, but I do try to treat them fairly. Explaining that is a challenge.

Souhila 36:32

It is, and that's why we need to explain it to employees too. You know, if you have two candidates who are applying for a role in a tech company and one of them has experience in machine learning, which is a very sought after skill, then obviously they're not going to get the same salary as the other candidates.

Keith 36:51

And that's there but needs to be explained perhaps.

Souhila 36:53

Needs to be explained and it needs to be acknowledged in the philosophy. Maybe you know. So how to ensure fairness is by ensuring that you check internal equity whenever you hire someone, and this is something that we try in companies to do in a consistent manner. You know there is the market, competitiveness, but there is also how they, where they sit in their salary range compared to peers, and whether it makes sense to pay them more. If yes, why. There has to be that thought process in place when you know negotiating salary with employees.

Keith 37:26

All this keeps coming out, all of this transparency and openness. We need to peel it back, basically.

Souhila 37:33

It's very opaque.

Keith 37:34

Yeah.

Souhila 37:37

Different companies have different levels of maturity when it comes to pay transparency, but in some companies compensation is still a black box.

Keith 37:43

Worse than that. In some companies, even talking about it might make you subject to disciplinary action talking to someone about your salary package. But this is because the openness wasn't there in the first place, so the explanations weren't given earlier on to show the differentials. Why are there differences If it's a simple job and it's a repetitive job in a factory or whatever? It's simple, this is the pay. This is what it's. A repetitive job in a factory or whatever? It's simple, this is the pay, this is what it's for. But when you get into more complex roles requiring a lot more thought process, the differences are marked, sometimes subtle, in other ways, but overall they make for a big difference. They can make for a big difference in what the company is prepared to pay an individual for a role.

Helping Women Return to Work

Souhila 38:34

I agree with you and I think that underlines the importance of knowing your story. You know what makes me unique. What impact do I bring, what do I bring to the table? You know, and when you come prepared in an interview process demonstrating what you have achieved in your past roles and what you are able to achieve in this you know a new role it really gives you credibility. Sometimes it's not about your capability, it's really about your ability to tell your story.

Keith 39:07

For sure. Which was my next question, because you said about pricing, problems are often alignment issues, not mathematical ones. Can you share an example, then, of just that as helping someone shift their narrative and their strategy?

Souhila 39:24

Yeah, I mean I can share the example of a client case. I'm not breaching confidentiality because my client is fine with me sharing their story. Just to protect her confidentiality, I'm going to call her Anna.

Keith 39:35

Okay.

Souhila 39:38

So Anna was working in a corporate environment. She got promoted, big regional role, great responsibilities. She worked really hard for a long period of time and was waiting for this to come Okay. But when it came, the salary increase was very, very minimal no increase in bonus, no equity, nothing. So she came to me with a big frustration and in starting that conversation what we realized was it was more of an identity problem than a money problem.

Keith 40:13

Okay.

Souhila 40:14

Because her identity is I'm going to work really, really, really hard, and you know hard work always gets rewarded. So it really took a lot of time to get her to see. Her mindset made her somehow negotiate against herself.

Souhila 40:33

Oh right and that loyalty is good but remaining silent is not a form of loyalty and that you know, by speaking up, you are creating healthy boundaries and healthy relationships with your company that are going to help you make this role more sustainable, have this relationship be better. It really took some time. It really took some time to work on that reframe and once we did that, it was really about understanding her job, what she brings to the table that someone doesn't, why she was chosen for this promotion, how her you know her salary compares with. You know whether it's peers or the external market. So really building a strong negotiation strategy. And we also worked a lot on role play. You know scripts, practice, because when you practice your brain is getting used to being in this situation. It's not as emotional, not as stressful, as if it's the first time you're having that discussion, and so it really helped her build that confidence, ground herself. And you know what's very interesting is that she was able to have a very healthy, calm, grounded conversation.

Keith 41:53

Without showing the emotion.

Souhila 41:54

Without showing the emotion. She also needs to believe that she's worth it. If she doesn't believe it, then who is going to believe it? For sure, right.

Keith 42:02

A takeaway from that. Not everyone is going to be in a high enough paying role with respect to turn to someone like you role with respect to turn to someone like you. But one thing I've drawn from that that if I were looking, I've never done it, but I see the value in role playing an interview with a colleague, a friend, someone you trust, someone who will give you good feedback, and I'd never done this but the negotiation part, so that, as you said, when you practice and practice and practice, it just becomes a process, a discussion. It's not emotional anymore and it's not a stranger. So your psychology, the way we think is this is normal. It's not a stress situation to react to in a stressed way, which is when you usually fall apart, right. So in my coaching I'm going to take that away and and tell my clients that if you're facing a negotiation at work or an interview, role play absolutely I'm happy to be the one right.

Keith 43:09

Of course, they'd be better off coming to you, but if they can't do that for practical reasons or financial reasons, I think role play is is a very, very valuable step-by-step process that will make it feel more comfortable.

Souhila 43:25

Yeah you build muscle memory, but I have to tell you and what I tell my clients all the time is a negotiation cannot be scripted. So we rehearse, we practice, we try different scenarios, but you still need to think on your feet when you are negotiating. It's just making this situation a bit more familiar for your brain, really.

Keith 43:48

Even if you get 80% of it, you only need to think on your feet for 20% instead of 100%.

Souhila 43:54

Absolutely.

Keith 43:55

You're a darn sight further in front right. So you coach women returning to work after career breaks. Men generally don't take career breaks because it's usually wrapped around childcare. That's changing, but very slowly. But you work and coach women returning to work after their career breaks. These are a group who are often sidelined. What's your top advice for them to regain confidence and traction, because that's often what's missing when they return to work is confidence. They may have been the super confident head of marketing for Asia Pacific. They've been out of the work environment, the corporate environment, for two or three years. The confidence has slipped. Now how do you help a woman in that situation?

Souhila 44:48

This is extremely common. Unfortunately, I see that a lot. So not only the confidence goes down, but many women returning to work after a break would carry a form of guilt.

Keith 45:01

You know Against the children, for the family, for the workplace.

Souhila 45:07

When you show up in an interview and you need to justify your career break.

Keith 45:12

Okay, got you.

Souhila 45:13

Many women don't feel comfortable. They feel, you know, guilty of stepping away because of you. Know all the implications, which many times are stories that they tell themselves. The industry is moving fast. I've lost my momentum. I need to relearn so many things because I forgot how we do these things, which is absolutely not true right, it's nonsense, like riding a bicycle.

Keith 45:37

These are, as we said earlier, self-limiting beliefs.

Souhila 45:40

Right completely yeah, absolutely so. They carry a guilt, and the problem with this guilt is that it's preventing them from showing them, from showing up, as you know, confident. Many times, they are ready to take a pay cut just to get a foot in the door, which is a very bad strategy, because the long-term consequence of this is that they end up being underpaid.

Keith 46:05

I want to stop you there, because this is a core lesson to take away Returning after a few years out to accept a lower salary not only are you going back in on a lower salary, but you're going to compound that over time and you perhaps will never catch up. Just by positioning yourself like that, you're putting yourself in a weak negotiating position and you're diminishing your confidence level. So I'm going to say as a man women, stand up for yourself, ask for your worth. That's it right.

Souhila 46:40

It's not that easy. But yes, I agree with you and you know, I think we should always negotiate from value and not from need.

Keith 46:49

Okay.

Souhila 46:49

But when you return from a career break, when you feel guilty about it, when you have lost your confidence many times you negotiate from need or you don't negotiate at all.

Keith 46:58

You accept a job with lower responsibilities, a lower salary.

Souhila 47:03

The advice that I give around that is really to own your break. What did you learn during? That break, did you develop any leadership skills that you know can be valued and, essentially, you know we should see it as something positive? Many women, during their career breaks, develop skills that no one else has the opportunity to Certainly multitasking improves. Multitasking is one you know. I have a client, for example, who stepped away for one year and a half, which is nothing in a career if you think about it to take care of her dying mother.

Souhila 47:47

So first she was sick and then she, you know, taking care of her family, her kids, while you know training on the side, because she didn't want to lose track of what's happening in the corporate world. This is massive.

Keith 48:00

Yes, it is.

Souhila 48:01

And there's definitely ways to value that. So it's really about owning your story, being confident that it's okay.

Keith 48:10

Before owning your story, you've got to set within yourself what your story is and say this is going to be my story. We talk about an elevator pitch. The elevator pitch is your story, condensed, but you have your story and it's an authentic one. It's not a created one. But unless you talk to yourself, have a conversation with yourself and set the story, you can't share your story and that's where you know coaching or reflection comes in yeah you know.

Souhila 48:40

What have you learned during that period? What strength have you developed? What are some skills that are transferable in a corporate setting. You know that you will be able to reuse, and so, by by doing this reflection work, you really start to believe in your worth and the fact that you know, at the end of the day, that break was not such a bad thing. And it's serving me in my career and how I show up as a leader every experience is an experience and it's a learning.

Keith 49:08

If you go back to that lady I think you said it was a lady who whose mother was dying you'd hope that if you're in a managerial position, a leadership position, when they come back, one thing they will have developed in that time is an empathy for other people and understanding. Sometimes you've been a tough manager. You've learned there's this other side, that things happen. You can come back as a better manager. But again, it's about incorporating this into your story, whatever that story is. And when you said that, we talked about women returning to work, because it's usually around childbirth and childcare.

Final Thoughts on Pay Conversations

Keith 49:49

But there are other reasons to step away from work and one of them could be an ill or dying relative. Right, he'll recognize himself, because I had an exchange just last week with someone who had moved from Australia to Singapore to take on a regional role working for me, and at the time his father was taken ill. Thankfully, he recovered for a while, but he passed away a few weeks ago and he reflected then on how my empathetic approach to him at that time more or less encouraging him to return to Australia rather than standing in his way and being selfish about the business. I had learned that from my own experience. I probably would have been a more hard-nosed leader if I'd not experienced that myself. But his thanks to me on linkedin the other day was still a little bit warm into my heart. Sad his father's passed away, but the time he had with him was so valuable and he returned to the workplace right.

Keith 50:56

You only have one mom and one dad.

Souhila 50:58

Far more important than any job, even paid negotiations I agree that's a beautiful story and I think, yeah, we need to normalize this. It's okay to prioritize your personal slash, family needs when you have to, and it's not a you know, it's always a temporary. Most of the time it's a temporary thing and it's okay. It should be accepted in our society, you know, and employers also have some work to do around that. Recruiters.

Keith 51:28

No recruiters. I think, again, again we started earlier on talking about ego and individual managers is individuals, because you have a corporate workplace, you have policies, processes, procedures etc. But these are delivered by leaders and managers who are individuals, and that's where the learning gap is. I think organizations kind of know what to do. It's a question of training and creating the right environment for the people to learn about that right and reducing bias we all have biases we all do 100.

Keith 52:05

They could be around race, culture, age, environment, anything and everything. We all have biases that are a result of our upbringing and our experiences. Being alert to your biases is a start to overcoming them and putting them aside. I don't believe in this strip it all away and measure people you know on, just on paper, because when you're hiring someone is still relationships, how they communicate all of these things matter, and there are some biases within different cultures and also within different work spaces, like if you're working in the luxury space versus the cheap and cheerful.

Keith 52:49

There are biases, but they're. They're valid, but be aware of them and choose according. Don't be blinded by your biases, right be intentional about your bias.

Keith 52:59

Yeah, yeah, but that sounds terrible, but, yes, I can't disagree with what you said. I knew this would be a good interview. When I say a good interview, it will be an interview that will resonate with people, because everybody wishes that they could negotiate better for their pay. You've just demonstrated today why that is so important, especially this compounding effect, that if you get it wrong at the beginning, it continues to be wrong over a long period of time. So leave us with one pearl of wisdom that you'd share to anybody who is facing either an interview for a new job or a promotion at work and they want to get the best salary they can. What's the one thing you'd leave them with?

Souhila 53:50

So if you wish to have a pay conversation whether it's salary or pricing don't put it off.

Keith 53:57

Right.

Souhila 53:57

You will never feel ready. You just have to start somewhere and build that muscle.

Keith 54:02

It's that old book. There's a book which I know it's read mostly by females, but I read it called Feel the Fear and Do it Anyway.

Souhila 54:10

Yeah, you can never remove the fear.

Keith 54:11

No.

Souhila 54:12

You will always fear approaching such conversations, and there's no courage without fear, right?

Keith 54:19

Oh, I love that. On that we'll close, and this is going to be the first episode of Series 2 of the Power Within. I'm so glad to have been joined by you, so, heila, wish you well on your travels thank you enjoy your time.

Souhila 54:35

Speak soon thank you so much for having me. I hope this resonates with your listeners and it really was an absolute pleasure to have that conversation with you, thanks, a lot, thank you thanks for listening to the Power Within.

Keith 54:48

I hope today's episode inspired you to grow, lead and create the success you deserve. If you enjoyed the podcast, share it with someone who might find it valuable, and don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. Join us next time as we explore more stories of leadership and personal growth, and remember that setbacks are just stepping stones to something greater. Until then, stay strong, stay positive and keep believing in the power within.